Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hey everyone. Welcome to Creative Architects by Casto. I am your host, Angela Hollowell, and this is a podcast about the future of the Creator economy. In this episode, I'm joined by Cory Gums, who is the founder of the Black Podcasters Association.
Speaker 2 00:00:21 Trends are trends, right? They come and go. So, if you're built on trends, you're constantly gonna have to keep one up, and you're constantly gonna try to figure out how to stay ahead instead of finding your lane and figuring out who you are, your voice, and carving your way in it.
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Speaker 0 00:01:26 So I really wanna start with how and why you decided to start a group for black podcasters exclusively.
Speaker 2 00:01:34 Long story short, back in 2020, well, 2019, in 20 19, 20 20 when I was trying to, um, learn more about the podcasting space, I was in a bunch of Facebook groups and, um, I just, it was, for me, it was mainly like interactions between people, you know, some black people I saw in the groups and other groups of people. And I think personally, it was like, I think some things were getting lost in, in translation, you know, the cultural differences, uh, as well as just a certain attitude that certain, you know, certain voices had in regards to like, buying equipment and, and how to make content. And I was like, well, you know, in my, in, in our community, it's a little bit different on how we go about things. And it was just, it was, it started to get a little pretentious, a little condescending, and I was talking to a friend and I was like, you know, just telling my, my, my, my observations.
Speaker 2 00:02:25 And she challenged me. She was like, well, why don't you start your own group? Then? She's like, if you don't like it, start your own group. So I never backed down from a challenge, so I was like, okay, let's figure it out. So she helped me set it up, and then, um, I was just trying to figure out like what I wanted it to be. Um, I didn't want it to be something where it's like, you know, where, you know, it's a, it's a thing for black people and we're just isolating ourselves. I wanted it really to be something that was gonna be something that for a, a space for black people to come to, but also to help move the, the industry along and, and be a part of the podcast industry versus being separate from it.
Speaker 0 00:03:00 And so, since you've started the community, how do you feel like you have personally benefited and, you know, grown as a podcaster?
Speaker 2 00:03:07 Oh, man, it's been a wonderful experience. I've met so many different people, so many supportive people. Um, I've gotten to hear different perspectives, different, um, learned that there's no one way to do everything. Um, I'm a pretty regimented person, so that was like a real big learning thing for me. Even just running the group, it was like, you know, I wanted to do it this way and I had to learn to adapt and pivot during the course of that. And just meeting the various different people in the community, outside the community that will offer advice and perspectives and things that I never thought about. It just helped me personally grow as a person, not even just as a podcast, as a person. I started to look at content creation a little bit differently, understanding where, you know, how people's voices work, but as well as my own. So I, I, it's, it's just so much it, I've met a lot of wonderful people who've turned into friends, and it's just been a great experience. Uh, I think it's also helped me, um, understand the power of podcasting as far as, you know, um, as the industry has been growing, especially through the pandemic being more, you know, becoming more corporate corporatized or monetization focused on monetization, it helped me understand that the independent voices and independent creators are still very much important to the stability and the growth of the industry.
Speaker 0 00:04:26 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, oh man, that brings up so many good questions. And I think that was just like such a feel good answer. Like, sometimes when we create for people, you know, we underestimate how much that's gonna positively impact us as well.
Speaker 2 00:04:41 Yeah, that's true. <laugh>, <laugh>, I, you know, when I look back, like I was actually thinking about it last night. We had a a, a workshop and I was, you know, unwind. I went to the movies and on my way home driving, listening to some music, and I was like, we have, you know, I just like, this whole idea has impacted not only just the members, but the people around them and the influence that they have on other people. So it's like, that's amazing.
Speaker 0 00:05:05 Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. And that's the best part of, of community. So when you were in the Facebook group, you kind of noticed that some things were getting lost in translation. And one thing that I feel like gets lost is why groups like this exist, why sometimes it may feel like black creators are kind of sectioning themselves off to have support groups. What are some of the challenges that you see for black podcasters in the creator economy?
Speaker 2 00:05:33 Uh, so my background comes from music. I was, when I was younger, I was trying to get into the music industry, and I'm a big history buff. So I think part of also the motivation for me starting was understanding my history as a black person in America in regards to us in the entertainment media spaces. And I've always, you know, grew up in the hip hop nine 80 nineties, I remember when hip hop only played on the radio in New York City two hours a week, right? And tho those, or depending if you caught the underground stations, but those were big for me growing up because I would have to sneak to stay up late and stuff. And now look what, now look at the effects of hip hop, right? When it was considered a fad, it wasn't gonna go anywhere. And that's how it's always been for our community inside of the entertainment spaces.
Speaker 2 00:06:18 Okay? The business is what it is. But we as black people, we're there at the beginning, we're there in the middle, we're there, we're there as it starts and grows. And I just saw the podcasting space as like an opportunity in my lifetime for what the music was industry was back in the forties and fifties for a lot of black artists where they got their big breaks and stuff like, you know, and I was like, this is the opportunity for us, so what does it mean? So that was part of my motivation too, for creating a group, because unfortunately we don't, we didn't have advocacy bodies for us in the music industry, in the TV industry, in the, in the, um, in the movie industry. And I was like, that's one of the, one of the things I wanted to do is make sure we had a voice, we had, um, to try to create an organization that we could sit at the table, not have to pick up the scraps and make our own table, but I don't wanna say integrate, but let people know we're here, right?
Speaker 2 00:07:08 Like, we're not this time around, we're not playing. Um, and truth be told, my philosophy, and I could be completely wrong, but my philosophy is gonna be we alway we people, industries always look towards our community when the money starts to dry up from the ideas that they had, because we've had to work so under the radar so long to, to survive in these industries that we get really, really creative. We get really innovative on how to, how to survive in it. And that's what hip hop was, that's what the hip hop industry was. We was selling records and stuff outta the trunks of our cars, you know, um, doing our own shows. And, you know, it was just, when you hear these stories, hip hop is 50 years old this year. So you starting to hear all these stories of that happened behind the scenes to get it to where it's at.
Speaker 2 00:07:51 So I I, you know, for me, and the truth is, you know, as you, if you follow me on Twitter, you know, I could be very vocal about certain things. Diversity is still a big issue, not only for black corrupt content creators, but marginalized people and people of color. And I think it's gonna be important for us to advocate for ourselves and speak very loudly about the unfairness on how black content creators are, are treated Monet, you know, with monetization in other ways in the industry. And this is an industry where you, I don't, you know, we can spin up our own server and website and launch our podcasts from there. So it's almost like pirate radio back in the days, you know,
Speaker 0 00:08:27 And that's what I've always thought about podcasting. It's like another form of radio and entertainment and, you know, especially now we're doing a video podcast. It's like, this is a natural next step. You know, some radio hosts go to talk show hosts, and this is kind of like the evolution of that. And that didn't kill radio just as this isn't gonna kill podcasting. And again, when we talk about innovation and, you know, really black creators being at the forefront of a lot of the trends that we see reach mainstream success, we don't always see that su you know, attribution going back to the creators, right? Right. Which is something that it re really does need to happen. So in your mind, like what are some ways that the podcast industry can be more inclusive for black podcasters?
Speaker 2 00:09:13 Understand that we're not the typical model. Our our audiences don't consume things typically like other audiences, right? So for instance, you know, I've had some conversations about the advertising space, right? Um, I think the work that like Edison Research does with their, with their report, um, the black listeners podcast listeners report what Pew Research has put out recently about the influence, the, the influence we have, the, the how loyal and how engaging our audiences can be. Um, I think people get too enamored with the numbers. So when you're approaching a black content creator, I think you need to work with them and try to understand what is the influence they actually have on their audience. Because, you know, that's how we do things. Like, you know, if I, if I like something, I'm gonna tell my friends and they'll, they'll go check it out, right?
Speaker 2 00:10:04 It's a lot. We do a lot of word of mouth. We trust, we don't, we, we trust, but we don't give trust. Well, um, willingly, right? We'll trust you to up to a certain point. And those, those hosts that have like really good followings that, you know, have really good relationships with their advertiser sponsors, whatever those, they're gonna sell products for you, they're gonna sell things that, you know, that's how Carl Kani and, you know, uh, all these fashion brands back in the nineties got big, right? It was through word of mouth. It was through the trust of, you know, those like the rappers with, with their, with their fan base. So I think for, um, a lot of corporations or people looking to, to, to support black content creators, especially in the sponsorship, monetization side, you might have to break the mold. You might have to look at things a little bit differently, and you need to sit down and talk to these content creators to understand better what their shows are about how they, how they engage their audiences, and what kind of feedback they get back from them. Because I can, I, I've seen people do it. Like I've seen rappers, I'm always gonna refer to the music. That's what I, I've seen rappers, you know, what might be like, you know, at a show with only a hundred fans, but those people brought the shirts, they did, they brought the music, you know, they, they, they supported, they donated money. So don't, don't rely too much on the numbers when you're looking at black content creators look at the influence, the sphere of influence they have.
Speaker 0 00:11:27 Yeah, it's definitely a, a situation of quality over quantity. You know what I'm saying? Right? 'cause it's like, like you said, like even if you have a thousand podcast listeners or whatever, 10,000 podcast listeners, if only a 10th of them are actually buying the stuff, you know, whatever you're selling versus a hundred, you know, someone with a hundred podcast listeners, but they got 50 to 70% of people buying the stuff. You know, like what, what is your real return on investment there in terms of really creating a genuine relationship with that audience and that podcaster? Which again, is something that I think podcast analytics are growing. I don't think we've, we've reached a point where we can say what you're saying, right? Like, well, we could look at the numbers and quantify, you know, direct influence as easily as we can with like YouTube, which has a crap ton of, you know, analytics, right? In comparison to podcasting. So again, I don't know, I don't know how we translate that in the long term other than just straight up having a conversation like, what are we in the nineties? We have to talk to people now, but that's the way it should be, the variety,
Speaker 2 00:12:32 It's relationship building, you know? Yeah. And we're, we're good at, you know, we're good at a lot of our content creators are good at that, right? We're, you know, um, I I think also part of it too is like that, like one reason people might ask, well, why does your, your organization exist? Why do groups like yours exist? Because we create a safe space for people, for our choir members to come in and complain, talk about, give their opinions. And I think, um, and maybe that's something on our side, we need to, uh, you know, not just myself, but other groups of people, you know, for people of color and stuff, maybe we need to be more vocal or, or, or create an opportunity for people to come into our community to to hear out like maybe a, you know, some kind of, um, townhouse conversation so that they could hear how our members talk about, um, sometimes the unfairness of, and the struggles.
Speaker 2 00:13:21 Like I, you know, I see people out here grinding and I'm like, but this person over here is getting easy, you know? And I've talked to some people behind the scenes like, Hey, you know, if you really want to, you can't just come into our community. And I think that's another important thing. You can't just come into like the black community, and I might speak for some of the Latino communities, but, um, you can't just come in here bearing gifts and think, and think that we're, we're not looking at you side eye. The history here, iner, I'll speak at least in America, has always been riffed with, you know, with us looking at things side eye. Because if, if you read a book or you, you, you see how things gone politically, people pro make promises and they don't keep 'em. So as a company, as a business, you have to come with a genuine interest into this community.
Speaker 2 00:14:03 And it's gonna be, it's a long game. It's, you gotta work, you gotta put a little effort, you gotta put a little time, a little resources into it to help maybe even build some of these people up. You know, the music industry is like, you could sell a hundred thousand records, you know, we could work with you, right? It's the same thing kind of here we can build you, you know, going back to the days, like even in music, they suffer from artists and artist development. Some of these companies have to go with some, some of these black content creators and work with them to help develop them into, I guess those stars or whatever it is. You, you, you know, your intentions are. But I think it's an opportunity for people to build brands within a community that technically a lot of these companies struggle to reach, you know, and communicate with. So yeah. But again, that's my opinion. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:14:45 No, no, that's a valid opinion. Because one thing I was thinking about, you know, when, you know, as this is a show about the creator economy, we think about, okay, well where is this headed? Where are the gaps? And I think media training is a big gap for podcasters, right? Oh, yeah. I think like, because like you said, podcasting is super accessible. You really don't need to invest a lot of money, especially for an audio only podcast. Maybe not even for a video podcast, you can just hop on, you know, Riverside Stream yard, whatever, get you a nice little, you know, mic right? And get it moving. You know what, I'm
Speaker 2 00:15:17 Need your phone, you know, <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:15:19 Yeah. Like the startup is so, like accessible. People don't think about necessarily quality out of the gate. They're just thinking about getting started. And I can't be mad at that because I'd rather you start imperfect and like, wait a long time to be perfect. But it's also like, okay, as you continue to grow and gain an audience and gain traction and maybe invest in gear and things like that, but like, are you investing in like your ability to create a good show and, you know, be, you know, right, you know, a source of, of influence for your audience. And I know that's like a controversial way to look at it, but you know, people are listening to you. If people have grown an affinity to you as a podcast host, the reality is they are more likely to buy from you if you recommend a product that you truly believe in or a service you truly believe in. But people aren't thinking of. They're just like, okay, well I got the audience. Why aren't the sponsors or whoever coming, you know, or why aren't the big brand deals coming? Or why isn't, you know, marketing my own pod, my own, you know, products working so well. Um,
Speaker 2 00:16:22 Yeah, I mean, I think that's, uh, you know, that, that's also part of on our side too, right? As as, and that's something we do in our community is try to get people to a certain point. Um, you can't just have a large audience and think brands are gonna come. Um, I, I'll always credit, um, I went to a Sounds profitable event last year about brand safety, um, and I was invited by someone. And I think that was a great experience for me because as I was sitting there looking, you know, listening to the report and, you know, their findings, it made, it got hit, like a lightning bolt struck me. And I was sitting there and I was like, so many of our black content creators talk themselves out of, they're talking themselves out of potential sponsorship brand deals and so forth and all that, because it's subject matter.
Speaker 2 00:17:08 But I also, you know, and it's, it's, for me, it's like that con that that weird conundrum where like, yeah, but they, they also got need to be authentically themselves. We do have not the most popular cultural norms, you know, and opinions and, and things, um, that some groups would, uh, would, um, would, uh, agree with, um, in positions that are, you know, and, and that's a long history that that, that, that we are still working through as a community as we grow and, and, you know, um, and, and, and mature. But, um, I think companies that are willing to invest to help find that balance and, and help keep black content creators, you know? 'cause one of the things we do have is, uh, we do push back when we feel like you're trying to change us. You know, you're trying to, I, you, you're trying to, um, define our blackness.
Speaker 2 00:17:57 And one of the biggest misconceptions both in, you know, in a lot of areas is that blackness is not, it's, it's not monolithic. You know, we have our jokes, we, you know, the black hard jokes and all that stuff, but being black is not monolithic. We have people in different parts of the country, different life's, life's, um, experiences, different education experiences. So it's, it, you know, it's, it's a very complicated, and it has a lot of variables in it. And those companies and those people are willing to sit down and invest some time and energy to work with black content creators to help guide them to, you know, to certain points, but also respecting who they are, what they are, and their, and what, what the culture here is in America. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I think those are gonna be the ones that win.
Speaker 0 00:18:38 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:39 At some point. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:18:40 Yeah. No, I agree. And I think, like you're touching on something that I think is a great note to end on, which is like, you know, one, you know, we're talking about a lot of huge cultural differences between black podcasters and the potential companies and organizations and brands that they'll be working with, which is something that, again, is gonna have to grow and develop as representation at those organizations and companies grows, and as black people get better at communicating kind of the nuance of, you know, right. Our culture, basically. So we talked, really, this is a lot of talk about monetization, but I really wanna know, like, what are your thoughts, um, and what are you excited about in the podcasting space in terms of trends that you're seeing, in terms of developments that you're seeing in the podcast industry? I just really wanna know for people who are even thinking about podcasting or who are podcasters that are watching this now, like what are some things maybe they should, you know, put on their radar as well?
Speaker 2 00:19:34 I don't know. I, I don't pay. That's my flaw as personal, personally is my personality. I don't pay attention to trends like that. Um, I, I, I more look at podcasting, you know, from its foundation and, you know, trends are trends, right? They come and go. Um, I think the people who, who do very well are the ones who figure out their lane. Um, I always had a issue with trends because, you know, like I said, they come and go. So if you're built on trends, you're constantly gonna have to keep one up. And you're constantly gonna try to figure out how to stay ahead instead of finding your lane and figuring out who you are, your voice, and carving your way in it. Now, that's typically the more, more frustrating, that's more of the long game, takes a little bit more commitment, a little bit more dedication, um, to do it.
Speaker 2 00:20:21 But the other part is you, you know, in that process, you should be willing to pivot as well. Like, if something's not working, don't keep trying to force it. Just figure out, how can I make this work? Or how can I shift a little bit to make it work? Or where can I adapt? Sometimes you just gotta walk away. So if I'm just talking to a new podcast, like, remove your ego, because I know this is a creative process that you're in, but it's not about you. It's about your audience. And you want to give, you wanna make sure you bring your audience the best value you can. And sometimes that means those ideas or the way you're handling things means to be thrown away, right? Um, and you need to re pivot and, and re and reshape yourself. For me, it's about for, you know, I'm exci, I'm just excited, period about, you know, where, where we're at.
Speaker 2 00:21:02 We, we was just talking the other day, like, I remember when everybody was excited that Apple Podcasts got to the millionth podcasts, right? It seems like such a long time ago, but it was only two, three years ago. And seeing where the industry's at now, that since back then is like, wow. Um, I'm still excited to see the new shows, um, the creative ideas people come up with to try to figure out how, you know, figure out their lane. And it's with the adapt adaptation of more video podcasts, um, audio podcasts. So I'm just, I'm like, I'm, me personally, I'm just exci. I'm a simple man. I'm excited about the growth. I'm excited just to see people. Um, I'm also excited to see it's kind of, um, I don't wanna say leveling out, but it's kind of, the fat is kind of being cut off. So, you know, um, 'cause you need that, you need, you need, you know, when you have this explosion of growth, then you need to, it needs to reset itself. So I'm excited to see how the people are in it readapt and adapt themselves to the reset and in just the potential of what they, what they can do. I mean, it's, it's just this whole thing is just fun to me. <laugh>,
Speaker 0 00:22:07 <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:22:08 I dunno if I answered your question, but
Speaker 0 00:22:09 No, you did, did I love it. That's how I see it. Yeah. I mean, like, low key, like, I know people hate comparisons with YouTube, but this is kind of how it feels. It was like you saw these YouTubers reaching a million subscribers and Right. You know, we hit, you know, a million plus videos on YouTube very quickly, you know, so much, you know, it exploded with shorts, you know, when the 1000000th short was posted in very short order. But, you know, it's also like, again, people go to it for quick wins and virality and trends, but then they're like, oh, this is work if I wanna, like, maintain this. And so the, you know, people who can't sustain that, that pace, they fall off, especially if they feel like their work isn't being seen and things like that. So I do think you kind of need that, like you said, that hard reset. Like, okay, who's really in it? Who's really dedicated to making the best show, even when it feels like it's not working? 'cause those are the people that are gonna be around in three or five years to reap the benefits and reap the rewards of sticking with it and, and finding their groove, and finding their rhythm, which is not sexy. Maybe not always glamorous, but, but it's, um, an evergreen way to success. So
Speaker 2 00:23:12 I'm also excited seeing podcasting growing on a global scale, because now we get to see how other groups of people in the world utilize this platform for their own success. And there's things they can learn from us, there's things we can learn from them. And I'm just, I think for me, that's the, the evolution of podcasting on a global scale and just seeing all these different cultures coming together and using it as a tool, how they, how they culturally deal with things. Um, I think it's gonna make the industry better, and it's gonna make a lot of podcasters, um, stronger in that, in that process as they see how other groups and people see this platform. So, and this medium. So, um, I'm excited about that too.
Speaker 0 00:23:51 Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with me today. For everybody watching, this is Cory Gums of the Black Podcasters Association. Please check out his community, check out his newsletter, and, uh, yeah, can't wait to see you guys in the next episode.
Speaker 2 00:24:06 Thank you for having me. I, I'm, I'm really excited about this show, and I, I can't wait to check all the other episodes, but thank you for having me here.
Speaker 3 00:24:20 That's all for this episode. If you enjoyed it, please give us a five star review on your listening app, like this video if you're tuning in on YouTube, and subscribe for more episodes. In the next episode of Creative Architects by Castus, I'll be talking with Jay Klaus of Creator Science, and you won't want to miss it. I'll catch you in the next episode.
