Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Creative Architects by Casto. I am your host, Angela Hollowell, and this is a show about the future of podcasting. I am gathered here today, oh God, we're not in church <laugh>. I am joined today by Deidre Shin, the founder of one of the co-founders of Capsu.
Speaker 2 00:00:28 We wanna invest in things that we know will actually force us to level up. And so I say this all the time, like a Capso. Vian is someone who has invested in themselves and they are leveling up to that rather than falling to what's comfortable to them.
Speaker 0 00:00:45 This podcast is brought to you by CAOs. One of the best ways to learn something is to go directly to the top people in that field. At CAOs, we do just that. Each episode of creative architects features creators who have taken their work to the next level. We hope that by watching and listening, it will inspire more creativity in your work along the way. Castus wants to be a part of your creative journey. From our suite of tools, feature rich hosting platform, and even our production services, we're here to help connect directly with us by emailing
[email protected] or by clicking on the link in the description. Thanks for tuning in. It means a lot. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so much, deja, for being here with me today. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:01:27 <laugh>. No, thank you for having me. And I feel like I was like, wow, are we getting married? Angela, this is the things are moving fast. <laugh>. You know what, let's do it.
Speaker 0 00:01:37 <laugh>. You know, listen, the summer heat just makes you move
Speaker 0 00:01:41 A little bit hasty these days. That's, I just felt like I was calling in the congregation there, <laugh>. So we can all whip out our church fans real quick for this episode. <laugh>. Oh man. But, you know, anyways, for people who are watching or viewing this and um, you know, it's their first time being introduced to Deidre, first of all, cap Show is an incredible company that's doing something that I feel like is really gonna positively add to the podcasting community. So Cap Show is kind of an AI based writing automation platform. Can you tell me a little bit about how you came up with the concept for cap?
Speaker 2 00:02:17 Yeah, so I'll try to give you the, the short version <laugh>. Um, but essentially I've been in entrepreneurship for over a decade now, and one of my leaders, so three years ago, so, you know, sudden Hospitality went into fashion technology, fell into agency work for e-commerce businesses, and then transitioned into coaching. That was, you know, around when Covid hit with that transition into coaching. Um, one of my mentors at the time said that I had started a podcast and I had no idea how to do that, but I did because I'm very coachable. So I was like, okay, well if you're gonna tell me to start a pod podcast, I'll do it. And I literally had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know how to edit, I didn't know how to do any of the podcasting things that is just so simple and almost second nature now, especially with all the tools out there.
Speaker 2 00:03:04 But at the time, so I'd started this podcast, but it was just not doing anything. It wasn't growing. The whole purpose was for it to help me grow my business, but it was not doing any of that, obviously. And so I had figure out what was missing, what was I not doing? And when I figured out that what I wasn't doing was actually marketing the thing <laugh>, you know, it was kind of like, you know, a lot of us fall into those traps 'cause I definitely did of, you know, build it and they'll come, I built this podcast and I was like, well, surely people will just find it, right? That's the, that's the point. That's the purpose of a podcast, but it's not. And so I had to figure out a way to actually get eyeballs or earbuds to my podcast. And so it was through that figuring that out where I was like, oh my gosh, this really sucks.
Speaker 2 00:03:50 Actually, you know, it's not great having to create all of this content when I was already creating content, which was my podcast. But then on top of that, I was like doing social media posts, I was doing blog posts, I was trying to get it onto YouTube. I was trying to do all of the things, and it was so overwhelming to the point where my team was burning out. I had someone leave because she was just like, I can't, like, it's just, this is just too much. And that was what led me to thinking, okay, we have to solve for this problem. How do we make the marketing of our anchor content, in this case a podcast that much simpler and quicker and more seamless? That's how Capture came about. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:04:30 I mean, like, you pretty much hit the nail on the head for probably 80% of podcasters who start a podcast <laugh>. They're like, oh, this is great. I have a mic, I have, you know, a nice pair of headphones. I've uploaded it. Where is all my money? Like <laugh>. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:04:44 Exactly. I know. And that does, I wish it worked that way, but then we'd all be and we'd all be rich, but it doesn't, so <laugh> yeah, that's, that's the journey that I went on.
Speaker 0 00:04:54 Yes. But to your point, I feel like your journey is fairly quick because if you started a podcast in 2020 and here it is 2023 and you already have an AI writing business that specifically kind of aimed at podcasters, I'm sure other people can use it, but it is mostly aimed at podcasters. That's a very, very quick trajectory to solving your own problem. And I feel like to the podcasting community's credit, they get a lot of tech a lot faster than other types of creators. For example, YouTubers, you know, we've had average people hit a million subscribers on YouTube, like not famous people. But when you look at podcasters, the only people who are really big are people like, or not the only people, but the majority of people who are really big. They were big before they ever started a podcast, right? So it's almost like they brought in an existing audience and then through this kind of intimate look into how they think, how they feel, the people they wanna talk to, the people they're inspired by, they grew even more. Right? But there's that zero to a thousand for a person who doesn't have an existing audience is a lot, a lot harder, but it's getting so much easier with all these tools, right?
Speaker 2 00:06:01 Yes, a hundred percent. And hopefully part of it is also, you know, the likes of the conversation that we're having, which is educating podcasters on the fact that they do have to actually put time and effort into promoting it. Because I think that was the missing piece that, you know, when I talk to even YouTubers, yes, they are helped by the fact that it's very much a search-based platform. And there's, you know, and yes, podcasting apps can be, but it's just, it's a very different type of search. It's very different, you know, outcomes or results that you're getting from the mediums. But even when I talk to YouTubers, it's like they also need to promote their video or you know, whatever it is that there. So it's not like it's any different based on the medium. We still always have to promote the thing that we're putting out there, but for some reason that that piece has just become lost <laugh> almost in, you know, in the wash. And we just assume that for some reason, just by having something on iTunes, like having a podcast on, on iTunes, it means that everything else is done for us. And that's not at all what it means. And so hopefully having these kinds of conversations just keeps educating and highlighting to other podcasts is that actually there's a lot more that needs to be done for you to have a successful podcast.
Speaker 0 00:07:14 To your point about people kind of forgetting that when they create things, they have to market it and they have to put it out there. I think that is true for any business. And I think that's where the confusion starts, you know, because they're not looking at, you know, a podcast or a YouTube channel as a business probably outta the gate, especially if they're doing it for just the love of creating. 'cause I think even your story's a little bit different. You didn't do it because you just love podcasting. You did it because you thought it would help your business, right? And so, and so you kind of understood that this needs to have an r o i kind of early on, which maybe other people aren't necessarily thinking about.
Speaker 2 00:07:51 Yeah. And that's where a lot of, you know, we talk about this pod fade phenomenon that's, you know, really big these days because, um, and that basically means that on average, oh gosh, I think the majority of people are stopping their podcasts after just seven episodes. And when you think about why that's happening, it's because of this. It's because everyone has these unrealistic expectations that by having a podcast, they're gonna become fa rich and famous. It doesn't happen within the first seven episodes <laugh>. And it's like, well, why am I doing this? Why am I spending all this time and effort into recording and editing and publishing when it's not actually getting me anything? And that is the big, that's, that in my mind is the big gap in terms of why it is that people are stopping their podcast, which is a big shame because we all have amazing things that we need to say and that we need to get out there. And it's a shame when, you know, people stop because their expectations aren't aligned to reality.
Speaker 0 00:08:49 So that brought, brings up two questions for me, which I think you're the perfect person to answer. The first of which being, you know, if we were to flip this on the positive, like what kind of positive stories have you heard from Cap show users, you know, since they've been using the product?
Speaker 2 00:09:03 Oh my gosh, so many. Um, yes. Thank you for asking me that. So, you know, even for, and I'll start, um, with my, my own, like why we even designed capture the way that we did was when I figured out actually how to effectively market my podcast and almost in which mediums and in what ways, like I was able to, I ended up doing multiple six figures in my coaching business in that first year that I was podcasting. So that was when I was like, oh, okay, this works. And that's kind of what we've bottled up and put inside capture. And then since then it's been amazing. So depending on people's results, but for example, just last week we had someone, and this is totally random, it's crazy what opportunities come up when you're not even thinking about it or looking at it. But Kara, she has, um, like a, a more of a wellness meditation style podcast and she started using, well, she has been using, uh, the blog post feature inside of Cap Show and she mentioned just last week that she has her first sponsor for her blog post, which is, it wouldn't even have thought, 'cause it's, you know, again, it stems from her podcast and we always think about how we use our podcast to monetize.
Speaker 2 00:10:12 But this was a very left field where she's like, yeah, someone just reached out to her, was like, love what you you're doing with the blog post. Can I sponsor that? So that was amazing. We've had people who JR Sparrow, so he was saying that he, since he used Cap Show, his listeners went from like single or maybe at best double digits to now. He, on one episode he had over 22,000 downloads just because he started using Capture, like the title description. So for its discoverability, but also in the way that he uses social media was a little bit novel. Anyway, so we did a whole separate podcast episode on that because that was so fascinating. You know, I've had other people who have their email list, um, has grown, you know, hundreds of percent their open rates on their emails because we also do, do emails as part of Capture has in like open rates for, um, Adam Lamb for example, went from, I think he was averaging something like 23%.
Speaker 2 00:11:07 And since using CAPS show, that has gone up to about 66%, which also is incredible. Um, Jerry Dugan, he is now in the top 1% on listen notes of Podcasters, same with Sandy. Um, she also mentioned she's now in the top 1% ever since using caps because it's made them more consistent in just podcasting number one, but way more consistent in actually promoting it, which is the key piece. And when you can be consistent in releasing episodes, you actually have more content that can get in front of your listeners in, you know, more frequently and you are more consistent therefore at the back of that marketing it, which means that you're actually getting more eyeballs and earbuds too. It becomes one of those like just an avalanche, almost like it's because it takes off and it has its life, it has a life of its own, which is a great, like it's a PO in a positive way. That's what you want and that's what Cap Ians are seeing across the board. Uh, so yeah, so really, really cool things happening.
Speaker 0 00:12:05 Yeah, I love that. But you know what I'm thinking, you know, about like how do we get to that good to great, right? Because that's what it sounds like, you know, cap Show is doing, because I think even with the best marketing in the world, if it's not a good show, people aren't gonna really stick around. So cap show and services like that take it from good to great, but it has to get to good and good takes some investment. And I think, you know, a lot of people when, especially when they're first starting out, may not have the capital or may not just be as willing to invest in a paid tool or a paid software to help get them from beginning to good, right? So what are your thoughts on investing in a show early on, right? Because you can't buy the whole gamut, you know, unless you're Joe Rogan, you know, <laugh>, yes. Unless you just have an endless budget already, you know, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 00:12:56 So it really depends on what your, the outcome is for the show. Some people have just a hobby show and that's totally cool. Like, if this is just something that you just are passionate about and you just wanna talk about it because really it's for you, <laugh>, then maybe you don't need to invest as much into it because as long as you know, it is just for me and I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put the time and effort in because I love this thing. I just love talking about it and I love the fact that it's out there. Maybe it's not gonna get a lot of downloads or listens and that's okay. So that's one outcome and that's totally, totally cool outcome. We always say a lot of times like, you have to do X, Y, Z, but if that's all you want, like, you don't have to be doing any of these things, but if you have a very strategic, you know exactly what you want outta the podcast.
Speaker 2 00:13:41 And by the way, cap works the best for experts for entrepreneurs who are experts. So we're talking coaches, consultants, service providers, people who wanna share stories and success stories, but also wanna teach in some way that's really who what, you know, capture is like just really supercharges that and that works well because a lot of times the R o I is, yep, I have a business of some sort. I have a coaching business or a course or a, some sort of service that I'm providing off the back of that. And so the r o i that you're looking at there is, am I able to market my content? And it could be a podcast that eventually you want people to come to because you have some kind of funnel from there. Or it could just be, Hey, I'm just gonna use the podcast as the literally as the anchor content, doesn't matter how other people, you know, find me or whatever, as long as they find me in some way go into my funnel.
Speaker 2 00:14:33 It could be through social media, it could be through my blog posts, it could be through whatever that is. Then if you have that kind of frame to be like, yep, this is how I'm going to use use, it becomes a very different conversation, right? Like it's not about now, okay, well the podcast itself has to make money. It's like, actually my business has to make money and the tools and the podcasts and everything else that I'm investing in is just supporting that. And if we can be really clear on what that outcome is and what R o I looks like, then it becomes a no brainer. And now this gets into the second part of it, which is like, well, and I know this, my CAP show is not the cheapest out there and it's designed not to be because it is incredibly powerful for what we promise.
Speaker 2 00:15:16 Um, it was built by marketers where marketers at the end of the day, and we have built into it ss e o and discoverability tips and tricks and hacks, you know, we've built into IT things visibility from a visibility perspective around social media and stuff. Like that's all inbuilt into cap. So a lot of times the conversations that I'm having and how I think about it is like, we wanna invest in things that we know will actually force us to level up. And so I say this all the time, like a caps, Vian is someone who has invested in themselves and they are leveling up to that rather than falling to what's comfortable to them. This was a big shift for me too, because I invest in a lot of expensive, like, you know, we're on one of the top tiers of, you know, CRMs like HubSpot.
Speaker 2 00:16:01 So when you think, and that's like thousands of dollars, right? And for me as a business owner, I'm like, I don't feel like I'm ready to invest in something like that. But once I did, it forced me to actually level up to, okay, well I'm gonna make the most of this investment, so what are all the things? And it's created new, like new ways of thinking for us, new ways of opening up monetization opportunities just because we leveled up to what it is that a tool like that could provide us, rather than going like, okay, well we're comfortable with spending maybe a couple hundred a month, but what happens with that is then you don't actually pay attention to it, right? Because you're not actually leveling, you're not stretching yourself into that. So I know it sounds a little bit more wo maybe, but like I so, so believe in the whole, like, you need to invest in your future self because that's the only way that you're gonna be able to actually grow and stretch into what you need to become in order to make the most outta that investment.
Speaker 0 00:16:56 First of all, I feel like I should call myself a cap chian now <laugh>, let's just stop there. <laugh>. Yes. Because I 100% agree with everything you're saying, right? I think like for me in general, I was really hesitant to invest in any kind of SaaS tool because I was like, oh, I could just find a person to do this, right? But the way that I had to start looking at it, for better or for worse, is there a person on this planet that I could pay a couple hundred dollars a year to do this one task? Absolutely not right? And to do it this quickly and to do it without me thinking about it, that is the the trade off that you have to think about, right? How do I wanna invest in order to get something done that is gonna move my business forward exponentially? Because when you put it in that perspective or whatever cap cost, it's minuscule compared to it's so small.
Speaker 2 00:17:45 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:17:46 <laugh>, it's so small compared to what you're going to get, get out of it, right? And I think that that kind of gets to be the rub. And again, you can't just invest in every SA software tool ever invented, but there are some that you know, for a fact are gonna move your business forward and some that are worth the risk of paying maybe more than what makes you feel quote unquote comfortable at the time, like your C R M software. Like a hundred percent agree, right? Yeah. For people who are in your shoes right now and they're like, I have a problem as a creator and I want to solve it by building my own software tool. If you are starting over, what mistakes would you help that person make? Or like, avoid <laugh>? Avoid, yeah. Don't to
Speaker 2 00:18:29 Make, not to make, make mistakes. Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. Um, okay. So the very, very first, like, it's really funny, uh, the very first iteration of CAP show was actually not what we see now, and it wasn't even targeted podcasters. So I'll, I'll kind of tell you, I'll delve a little bit into this story. So I, I mentioned that I was coaching e-commerce businesses at the time, so had digital marketing agency transition that into coaching, but it was for e-commerce business owners. And my one fundamental strategy, or part of strategy was to these business owners was that you have to show up as yourself in your marketing essentially. And 'cause if you know anything about e-commerce people, like, they don't wanna do, they, there's a reason why they went into product, right? They <laugh>, they wanna hide behind their product. And I was like, no, you have to be the face of it because especially when you're just starting, you are the only differentiator between you and anything else on, like Amazon for example, it's you, you know.
Speaker 2 00:19:25 So there was a little bit of, you know, getting over that barrier and then they were like, okay, okay, I get a dre. So, but I just, I dunno how, I don't dunno how to tell my stories, I dunno, all of that. So what we actually did, the first iteration of capture was actually quite rules-based. It wasn't even AI driven. It was, it was much more <laugh>, much more rudimentary than that. Basically we would cap the first iteration capture would take, take them through telling their story. So it was almost like we had an initial use at the time, say it was kinda like madlibs, where, you know, we would prompt them through telling their story and then our software would take that and convert that into a bank of social media captions and emails. And, um, that did not take off it, it was like crickets.
Speaker 2 00:20:05 And I was like, what is going on? Because this is amazing, this like no one else is, you know, this is at the end of 2021, right? So before, you know, AI was, I mean, AI's always been a thing, it's always been around, but like before it was like big, like it's now, there weren't really tools, many tools out there kind of like this. And so I was talking to another coach at that time and I was like, you know, maybe it's just our headline, maybe it's just the messaging of this. And he basically, um, broke our balls around the fact that it was not that it was that we were not niched down enough. We were not talking to a specific audience because we were like, well, this can help all entrepreneurs. So when he was like, oh, but when you say all like what?
Speaker 2 00:20:47 I was like, no, like all entrepreneurs can <laugh>. I was like, no, that's not good enough. And so, um, it was only then when, and he, and he was very specific about like, you maybe don't want to be talking to e-commerce because again, you have this, I've been through a bit of pain and it takes time to get people over that curve of, you know, believing that they need to be the face and they need to be telling a story. So he was like, are they the right audience or do you wanna be talking to an audience who already knows the power of storytelling? And so when he put it that way, I was like, oh, okay, it makes sense now. Um, everything that I've been doing with my podcast, it's kind of fallen into place. I just, I was almost just like kind of, you know, blinded.
Speaker 2 00:21:26 So when I was like, yeah, I mean I'm a podcaster and podcasters are natural storytellers, you know, there's none of that that I have to get over. That was when the secondary iteration of CAP show, you know, we were set down this path. So that's one of the first, you know, mistakes I would help people avoid, which is get really targeted with who it's that you wanna be speaking to. And we all know, because I had this limiting belief, self-limiting belief as well, which was like, but I wanna build for everyone because I wanna be this billion dollar company. Like, you know, uh, meta or Google or whatever. But you know, I think we all have to understand that they all started in one place as well. Like Facebook was just for college students. You know, like every big business that we see now was very, very niche to begin with. Um, and I think we forget that because we look at these big businesses and we're like, well, they're targeting everyone. I wanna target everyone. And so that's like fundamentally the first thing that I would encourage anyone starting a business to do, which is really, really know who the specific audience is that you're talking to. Even if knowing that at some stage it's gonna be a lot bigger than that.
Speaker 0 00:22:32 No, that's beautiful. I think that's like so, so important. And I also think it's interesting that it didn't start as an AI-based platform, which a lot of things are now adding some aspect of, of ai. And in my head, you know, I'm like, AI has been around, we just maybe haven't called it that, right? Yeah. Like the same things that, you know, we are looking for it to do now, it has in large part always been able to do it just maybe wasn't in one main source thing that is, you know, chat G B T or something like that. But as a creator, you know, not only am I a podcaster, I'm also a filmmaker, I'm also a photographer in, you know, the communities that I'm in on Twitter, on Instagram, on threads. I think there's a lot of pushback in using AI for creative purposes, right? I think there are people who are, like, AI is supposed to be for repetitive tasks. It's not supposed to be for critical thinking and critical creativity and, and deep work and, and things like that. Have you kind of heard some of the pushback and people not wanting to use AI for writing social posts or for writing blog posts or, and you know, what has kind of been your response to some of those negative thoughts?
Speaker 2 00:23:45 Yeah. And look like I have the same thoughts myself too. And so, and this actually comes in, plays into how we actually designed cap show. So cap show 1.0 of the second iteration <laugh>. So for podcast is about, it was like, we went live in July 15th on July 15th, 2022, so year, like just a little over a year ago. And when we went live, it was kind of, it was relatively simple. I mean, as all tools when, you know, when they get launched, um, are, and we actually then updated. So when Chachi, BT and, you know, really became big, we, I could see what was going to happen, which was all of these concerns of like, well, we're all gonna start sounding the same. Um, you know, where does creativity play a part in, in any of this? How do I also, even just from like an intellectual property copyright perspective, like how do I start to protect myself against potentially what is coming?
Speaker 2 00:24:40 And for, from a business perspective, I was like, from a capture perspective, I was like, well, I don't really wanna be adding to the, what I call the content vomit that is going to come as a result of how, um, pervasive AI is now. And so we actually worked and launched on Capture 2.0 at the beginning of this year. So we launched that, oh gosh, I wanna say like February-ish, um, of 2023 and 2.0 was all around how do we make the creator the center and AI just augments in certain ways? So now what does that mean? So I'm a big believer that if you, if you think about podcasting, and there's a particular flow in the podcasting process, right? So you kind of, you come up with the, the topic idea and then you record and publish and then you market it. And so for me, those two things, like coming up with the idea, yes, you could use chat chip pt potentially to just spark an inspiration, right?
Speaker 2 00:25:34 You can use AI in that way, but I draw the line at scripting, at having an AI script, something because at the end of the day, I fully believe in creators as a whole. Any of the content that we produce needs to be anchored in our stories needs to be anchored in our experiences and in the actual value, like our perspectives, our thoughts. So when we talk about, you know, like a, a framework or something like that has to be us, that that cannot be generated through ai. So I am a firm believer in that, and I talk about that on like everywhere that I can. I'll be like, do not use AI for that. And this second part about recording, and I know more and more that there are people out there who are creating podcasts that are fully AI even, you know, voiced.
Speaker 2 00:26:18 And I also draw the line there because I'm like, why are we doing this thing? Like, why are we even creators? At the end of the day, we're creators because we wanna connect with our audience. So that's why, you know, the first part, telling the stories, showing the value, that is a surefire way that you can connect with your audience. But then the other way that is gets forgotten a lot of times, I think, is that we connect with our audience because of our voice and our accent and the way that we look and we show up and the energy that we bring. And yes, AI will become smarter and I know that I will eat these words at some point, but AI cannot replicate that right now. You know, the way that I stumble over my, my words sometimes or I stop mid-thought and I can't finish it.
Speaker 2 00:27:02 'cause I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to tell you this other thought that isn't humanness, right? That we all understand that that connects. And some people won't like that and that's fine as well. But there are other people who are like, I just love how, you know, how just imperfect you are <laugh>. And you know, because I can vibe with that. And that's what actually, you know, that bit, you know, the modulations of our voice and our tone and all, like, that's the stuff that actually also subconsciously connects with our audience. And so those two parts, I'm like, I will not in, gosh, I feel like I should say never say never, but like, I don't think I will ever use AI for that. But then when we go into post that creating that content, the way that we create a capture and why I, why I feel as good about and I stand behind it is because it is still anchored in your content.
Speaker 2 00:27:51 If you've done the first two things, which is you've told your stories or your guest stories, maybe you've taught, you've given your value or your guest value, the things that it amplifies of the back of that, that cap does is completely anchored in your content. It's just finding other ways to, to, like, it picks up on particular things that you might've even forgotten that you mentioned in that, in that episode. And it, it draws that out and then it amplifies that. And so that's the way that we build capture, you know, and, and you know, everything else that we, we put into that, which is that you can now structure your assets in different ways. So you can actually create, so the way that I do my, my email or I structure my blog posts or I structure my title and description or show notes will be different to how you do it.
Speaker 2 00:28:35 Angela, for example, like it's because that's the way that we've designed capture is that it's completely customizable. So we as a creator, we control it. I'm just not gonna give you a slab of text like you get sometimes out of, you know, other AI tools and then everyone looks the same. No, it's like you have the control, you customize it, and by the way, it's a full editor. So rather than just copying and pasting, edit the thing, that's the only way that you know, and we're very, very <laugh> open about this to all of our cap. It's like if you are not editing your content, you've gotta start doing it. Because when we think about what's coming around regulation, about protecting yourself through copyright and all those things, the more that the human plays a hand directly in that, the more that you're protected. So, so we built an, you know, an inbuilt editor and everything. Yeah. Anyway, so all of all that to say that we're very passionate about creating an an atmosphere where the creator itself doesn't feel like their voice is not heard, that's the most important part of it. That AI is just there to help
Speaker 0 00:29:40 Amplify that. I love that. I love that. I think that's a great note to end on. Thank you so much for sharing your time with me, Deidre, and I cannot wait for more people to try Cap show for their podcast. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Angela. That's all for this episode. If you enjoyed it, please give us a five star review on your listening app, like this video if you're tuning in on YouTube and subscribe for more episodes in the next episode of Creative Architects by Casto, I'll be talking with Justin Moore of Creator Wizard and you won't wanna miss it. I'll catch you in the next episode.
